There is nothing sinister here. The questionaire was based on Tessa Jowell's with one addition. While that may appear illogical, it is where we are.

Let's not get distracted from the real problems we face.

I agree.

Can anyone tell me what the next step is now as December 13th is imminent and it was a few weeks now that we flyered.

It seems that Southern have alreeady insiduously introduced the cuts.

For all of last week, every time I was at Charing X or Waterloo, all our trains were starting from London Bridge...


I know it's only a little thing but I renewed my season ticket at Waterloo as a protest against Southern (less cash heading their way I understand).

If we are to undertake any direct action, hang posters/banners or stage protests we're going to have to move fast.

I have been away for a bit but wondered if my earlier post had been noticed:

So after December (if the Campaign does not manage to reverse the decision) I have been looking at my options to travel from Charing Cross to Honor Oak Park in the evening.

So far it look like the most efficient way for me is to get a Southeastern train from Charing Cross to Ladywell station and then walk or get on the P4.

I may stop using Southern completely in the evening and try that journey too in the morning and will be buying a zone 1 to 3 yearly ticket instead of buying a annual railcard from Southern. Has anyone got experience of this line/route?

(Admin, I am happy for you to move this post to a new thread about alternative train routes after December changes)

Am I missing something here? Why wouldnt you just pick up the first train from CX to LB and conncet with the Honor Oak service from LB?

Hi Ghis

I often use the Charing X/Ladywell route on the way home, although not so much in the morning as I tend to take the 172 all the way to Aldwych. The evening service is usually very reliable and often goes fast to Ladywell from Waterloo East, which makes the journey time even quicker. I can walk home from Ladywell in around 15 minutes or get a P4/122 to Brockley Rise - the bus stop is just a couple of minutes round the corner from the station.

The few times I have used it in the morning, it is crowded (although no more so than HOP), but the direct journey to Charing X has made up for it. I can't comment on the reliability though as I really haven't used it often enough.

As an alternative route it has worked very well for me - I got fed up of the crush at London Bridge, so have been using alternative ways to travel to and from work for some time.

I have also used the train from Crofton Park to travel to City Thameslink and then walk or get a bus to Covent Garden from there. This seems less reliable - I've seen far more cancellations on this route than on the Ladywell one - but when it is running it is very handy.

Hope that helps!

Gingernuts,
Because at the moment with 6 trains an hour I sometimes cannot get on because it is so packed, so a journey which should take me less than 1h door to door end up taking 15/20 minutes longer and sometimes more on a really bad night. Even after I have managed to get on the next train I often still have to be on an overly crowded train so I dread to think what it will be like when we only have 4 trains an hour. Hence trying to see if there are alternative route to give me that flexibility.

Sophie, Thanks for that, it really helps. It sounds like you live really close to me. I think I will do the HOP/LB/CC route in the morning and will try the ladywell route in the evening + P4 or walk (and the walk from Ladywell to my house in the summer should be a nice one too).

It doesn't help for rush hour, but the Victoria - Crofton Park trains (which start around 9.30pm) are great for getting home from west london in the evening. Then it's just a short ride on the 122 / 171 / 172 bus.

Has anyone seen the travel time on the new line? I will be able to take either the ELL or train to London Bridge and then walk to work in the City. I was wondering which would be quicker? If work around Liverpool St?

Is there actually a campaign?
I realise there is a petition and that flyers were handed out one morning, but this hardly constitutes a sustained and concerted effort (a campaign), although I don't know if there has been any feedback from the cross party letter to Sadiq Khan...

In post 600

I appreciate FHS are volunteers and have other stuff to do and that Michael's withdrawal may have complicated matters, but could more not be done with just a week to go before the new timetable? I think there are plenty of willing troops.

PVP - here are the actual travel times that you were looking for on the ELL. It will take 22 minutes to travel from FH to Shoreditch and around 16 mins to LB using Southern trains. So you obviously need to add on walking times from LB versus walking times from Shoreditch to work to figure it out:

FH to HHP - 2 minutes
HHP to Brockley - 3 minutes (5mins total time from FH)
Brockley -to NX Gate - 2 minutes (7 mins ttfFH)
NX Gate to Surrey Quays - 4 minutes (11 minutes ttfFH)
Surrey Quays to Canada Water - 2 minutes (13 minutes ttfFH)
Canada Water to Rotherhithe - 1 minute (14 minutes ttfFH)
Rotherhithe to Wapping - 2 minutes (16 minutes ttfFH)
Wapping to Shadwell - 2 minutes (18 minutes ttfFH)
Shadwell to Whitechapel - 2 minutes (20 minutes ttfFH)
Whitechapel to Shoreditch High St - 2 minutes (22 minutes ttfFH)
SHS to Hoxton - 2 minutes (24 minutes ttfFH)
Hoxton to Haggerston - 2 minutes (26 minutes ttfFH)
Haggerston to Dalston Jct - 3 minutes (29 minutes ttfFH)

As you say we are volunteers and unfortunately have been extremely busy with our personal/professional lives.

I would like to organise some form of protest on the last train from Charing Cross (2345 Sat December 12th). I had in mind some form of New Orleans wake, with Jazz band and a effigy of some form - a train in a coffin? We could all turn up in fancy dress and hopefully get some media coverage.

Any musicians out there?

PVP - the short answer is ELL will be miles quicker (and less hassle) if you work around Liverpool St. If you think about how long it takes to get out of LB in the morning, wait for the bus (which is usually packed with people who've travelled from this area!) and the bus ride itself to Liverpool St, the journey time will be nearly halved. That journey (FH to Liverpool St/Shoreditch area) is approx 30-40 mins at the moment, so 22 mins (plus a short walk) is a real improvement!

FHSoc wrote:

My problem with all this is that I still don't understand what the 'official' justification is for the withdrawal of the off-peak direct services to Charing Cross. Surely we need to know what this is before we can effectively challenge it? Can anyone enlighten me? Might the reason be contained in the response to the letter to Sadiq Khan, about which Foresters reminded us yesterday? How can we find out whether there has been any such response and, if so, what it says?

Robin - there really isn't a "justification" for these cuts, other than the government (and not the TOC) has decided that this is the way they want to "cut the cake".

At this stage, the real issue is what you do about this rather than analysing letters between government ministers, TOCs and Network Rail.

It's on the future timetable and it's going to happen - starting next week! At this stage, we need to consider protest.

The question is - Will you be able to help with this protest?

Nasaroc wrote:

Sorry, Nasaroc, 'analysing letters' is my thing! If you're right in your suggestion that the decision was taken by the Government on quite arbitrary grounds,I reckon there would be a prima facie case for asking Mr Dowd to refer the matter to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration ('Ombudsman').

I've now written to Mr Dowd, in response to an email he sent me as long ago as 26 October, as follows:

I was very sorry to hear about your operation, and was glad to read that you are now back in the House. Best wishes for a quick and complete recovery.

I wondered whether you are yet in a position to let me the outcome of the joint letter to Sadiq Khan which you signed? I understand that the direct service in the evenings from Charing Cross to Forest Hill is being withdrawn from next Saturday, and I have still not read an adequate explanation of why Southern have found it necessary to impose this significant inconvenience on us. (TfL are clearly not going to respond to the email I sent them). I suggest it will bear particularly hard on elderly and less physically fit people who will be less inclined to travel up to the West End in the evening if they face a more complicated journey than now (with even more steps!) on the way home.

Fancy dress on a station platform at midnight is a step too far for me, I'm afraid. But if I can help it any other way, I hope someone will contact me.

Southern were making a very broad announcement at regular intervals on the station PA at Honor Oak Park. I presume it was a generic message being repeated at every station affected.

Couldn't hear it particularly clearly since I was at the end of Platform One in the open air which is served by one tiny speaker, but the gist that I picked up was "thanks to South Eastern timetable changes we won't have any more direct trains from Charing Cross through next week - but we'll have a much more regular service fast to Norwood Junction".

Good to see some effort at communication - but is this all now effectively a fait accompli?

Drivers have also been making annoucements in the trains at Charing Cross.

Davidl,
There is no question that these changes will come into force this weekend. I also heard last night that Lewisham Council is now backing the cuts to these services and those in May 2010, despite cross-party support for our campaign to oppose both sets of cuts.