Flight Paths over SE23
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NewForester
Posts: 379
Joined: Feb 2008
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22-02-2008 05:45 PM
Looks like I am still missing something! The shaded red area on the proposed map is still both north and south of the Thames and I would have expected planes to use both routes in the interests of efficient arrivals.
Maybe these quotes will help you:
"Aircraft may, at times, route anywhere within the coloured areas for reasons of safety or efficiency. However, the black lines denote the swathe in which most aircraft would be expected to be contained during normal operations.
The red line depicts the ?centre-line? for the departure route; on the proposed map the dotted centre-line shows the non-PRNAV route, whereas the solid red line shows the P-RNAV route. The proposed P-RNAV and non P-RNAV routes for easterly departures from London City follow the same alignment as one another, therefore only one red line is shown in the maps for these routes.
The colour coding shows a worst case for aircraft heights (the lowest expected); the actual height most aircraft achieve will be above this.
See part D of the TCN consultation document for a full description of how to read these maps.
and
Aircraft Navigation for Arrivals: P-RNAV
4.10 There are currently no set flight paths from the hold to the runway during normal operations. Air traffic controllers position aircraft across a wide swathe of airspace to ensure safety and land aircraft as quickly and efficiently as possible.
4.11 P-RNAV design of the airspace (see Part D of the TCN consultation document for an overview of P-RNAV) will provide a set route from the holds to the runway[b] which means the swathe of airspace in which aircraft are regularly seen will reduce in some places, [b]i.e. aircraft flight paths will be more concentrated along the centre of the route. However, it must be noted that even with P-RNAV, air traffic controllers will still take aircraft off the routes when necessary, to maintain safety, to land aircraft more efficiently or to provide a direct flight path reducing fuel burn and emissions when possible.
In other words, the trend under the proposals will be for more aircraft to use the P-RNAV (Precision Radar Navigation) routes as they come in to land, thereby concentrating the aircraft along the red route, whereas they are manually routed in across the shaded area by the ATC at the moment.
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Londondrz
Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
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22-02-2008 05:54 PM
In other words, the trend under the proposals will be for more aircraft to use the P-RNAV (Precision Radar Navigation) routes as they come in to land, thereby concentrating the aircraft along the red route, whereas they are manually routed in across the shaded area by the ATC at the moment.
Yes but the P-RNAV will never had a steady flow of aircraft all on the same heading and hight particulally given the frequency of flights. Planes willl be bobbing all over the sky and the champers swilling passengers will be up in arms.
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NewForester
Posts: 379
Joined: Feb 2008
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22-02-2008 06:22 PM
If my earlier calculations are correct, then we would have a plane every five minutes for six hours a day (on average).
It's fairly hard to get an overview of the changes because there are so many maps, but I THINK that the reason they will not be routing the same proportion of arrival traffic over Dagenham is that they have routed the North-bound departure traffic over them instead (maps i5 and i9).
This may not be dire, but I as a principle, we should not condone a concentration of air traffic above any Londoner, a view not shared by our illustrious leaders
P-RNAV will also enable aircraft to fly more accurately along a given route which, in line with Government guidance (Ref 2, Appendix F), will concentrate air traffic in some areas
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Les
Posts: 95
Joined: Jan 2004
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22-02-2008 09:13 PM
All take off and landing zones have to be fairly wide for the planes to avoid wake turbulence i.e. the disturbed air that comes off a plane as it passes through the air. Follow closely behind another plane and it is a very unpleasant experience which is why the red corridor is so wide.
I'm not sure this is correct.
The P-RNAV specification that is planned for arrivals into London City is +/-1 nautical mile horizonatally, for 95% of arrivals, in practice these will be flown much closer to the horizontal track than this.
Wake turbulence is not limiting in this - the minimum permitted spacing varies between 2 and 4 mins depending on the aircraft type.
Driving in on the M40 on a Sunday night you will see a procession of jets on the same approach at these spacings.
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andrewr
Posts: 296
Joined: May 2006
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22-02-2008 09:21 PM
Michael
I wonder if we are reading too much into these charts. Interestingly the map of the 'existing' approach paths appears to be wrong in so far as it shows the hold (the racetrack pattern) for City near Southend. In fact it is at Swanley, and it is because we are on a direct line from Swanley to a point about 5 miles short of the runway (where the planes line up for their final approach) that results in most City arrivals for runway 10 flying over us at the moment. I think it is important to remember that runway 10 is probably used for only about 30% of the time - most of the time they are landing to the west on runway 28 and we don't see or hear them at all.
My biggest concern about aircraft noise is the early morning arrivals of flights at Heathrow, the first of which are at about 0430 and can be annoying in the summer when the windows are open.
I don't see any likelihood of affecting the proposals in any way so apart from spreading a bit more knowledge of what is going on, I don't think the issue is worth worrying about.
BTW, if anyone is really interested, they can buy a receiver device to plug into their PC which turns it into a virtual radar picking up the transponder signals from all aircraft within line of site. This signal gives, amongst other things, the aircraft altitude, so it is possible to see exactly what height they are flying over your house. Cost ?379.95.
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hilltopgeneral
Posts: 156
Joined: Mar 2004
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25-02-2008 11:53 AM
Some time ago I suggested you all chip in for a barrage balloon, to be tethered on Horniman Drive. It seemed like a more cost effective, not to say civil, option than working some contacts with cousins in Peshawar who could perhaps lay their hands on an unused Stinger missile, one careful previous mujahadin owner.
Perhaps it's time to organise the collection?
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Sherwood
Posts: 1,414
Joined: Mar 2005
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25-02-2008 12:08 PM
We could have a anti-aircraft gun in the museum.
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Londondrz
Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
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25-02-2008 12:17 PM
As the flights are so low can we just stand on the top of the flats and throw stones at them, Roz may know a few yoofs who can help us out.
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robwinton
Posts: 335
Joined: Jun 2006
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25-02-2008 07:33 PM
As the flights are so low can we just stand on the top of the flats and throw stones at them, Roz may know a few yoofs who can help us out.
Apparently, and thankfully, their aim isn't very good though
There is always the old gun emplacement at the top of One Tree Hill to consider?
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mljay
Posts: 80
Joined: Mar 2007
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08-04-2008 09:31 AM
is it just me or are inbound flights into heathrow over forest hill/ honor oak park a permanent fixture now. we moved in about a year ago and I hardly ever heard the planes and the ones I could see were pretty high up. However, for the last couple of months, I hear them every morning, pretty loud and banking pretty low over the area?
Is this new... permanent?
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PVP
Posts: 271
Joined: Mar 2005
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08-04-2008 09:41 AM
I'm **** off as well. Flight paths used to be rotated so it was never the same people inconvenienced (unless you live near an airport of course). Every morning by 6.30 it starts.
Letter writing campaign alert....
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Londondrz
Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
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08-04-2008 10:42 AM
Lived in FH for 7 years and hadnt noticed a significant change.
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michael
Posts: 3,261
Joined: Mar 2005
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08-04-2008 11:05 AM
For those concerned about Heathrow Airport expansion there is a Public Meeting:
Living Under ?A Sky of Sound?
23rd Apri -7.30 pm
Recital Room, Blackheath Halls, 23 Lee Rd, SE3 9RQ
Speaker: John Stewart, Chair HACAN
John Stewart will outline the proposed changes and explore the ways we can influence key decision-makers in South East London and beyond.
The maps produced by the Department during its recent consultation on Heathrow expansion show that all aircraft landing over London will join their final landing path as far east as Woolwich and Bexley and then fly in two parallel paths to Heathrow.
? The northern flight path: Greenwich ? Peckham ? Camberwell - Vauxhall.
? The southern flight path: Blackheath ? Deptford ? Dulwich - Stockwell/Brixton
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vipes
Posts: 145
Joined: Oct 2006
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08-04-2008 12:25 PM
I understand these flightpaths are determined by the prevailing westerly winds which assist deceleration for landing and so the flightpaths do vary according to wind direction. There are definitely plane free mornings which would appear to back this up. But I am no aeronaut.
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mljay
Posts: 80
Joined: Mar 2007
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16-04-2008 09:02 AM
is it just me or are inbound flights into heathrow over forest hill/ honor oak park a permanent fixture now. we moved in about a year ago and I hardly ever heard the planes and the ones I could see were pretty high up. However, for the last couple of months, I hear them every morning, pretty loud and banking pretty low over the area?
Is this new... permanent?
thought it was flights to heathrow over my house that made so much noise, but noticed this morning that they are smaller planes, (flying quite low) that fly west and then appear to take a right turn over east dulwich.... heading to city airport? so perhaps it is the increase in flights to city airport as well as the new landing pattern where all flights are streamed over SE London that I need to worry about.
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vipes
Posts: 145
Joined: Oct 2006
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16-04-2008 09:04 PM
I understand these flightpaths are determined by the prevailing westerly winds which assist deceleration etc etc
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roz
Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
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17-04-2008 05:15 PM
I did some research on this a few years ago. There is also a thread on this in the archives. As Vipes has said, generally due to winter weather systems its more common for planes to use the westerly preference ie fly from east to west over the Biggin Hill stack then over Forest Hill from the spring onwards. This is why we seem to notice it more around April time, and of course we all start opening our windows at this time of year so notice it even more. The extent to which individuals notice or are bothered about it varies a great deal. I noticed it more when I moved out of a (noisy) block of flats into a quieter house on a relatively quieter road. It has however definitely increased in the last few years, and our family and friends comment on it when they come to stay. Personally I am less affected by the City Airport flights which I see as no more disturbing than a passing car.
We clearly don't want to become Luddites but air traffic noise clearly is a problem thats going to increase for all Londoners in the coming years, even in the outlying eastern/southeastern suburbs, so we either need to start getting used to it or finding something that we can realistically do to effect change. Homes and businesses on the flight path nearer to Heathrow can claim allowances for additional sound insulation so this might be one thing to start demanding.
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Baboonery
Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
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17-04-2008 05:56 PM
My flight circled over SE23 on the way to approach City from the west last evening. We were quite high up, but I could tell it was SE23 because the frightful illuminated signs of the 987 bookies were blazing away.
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thenutfield
Posts: 235
Joined: Nov 2007
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17-04-2008 11:32 PM
could you see the hoards of Big Issue sellers from up there as well?
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Baboonery
Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
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18-04-2008 10:03 AM
They have hoards? Hoards of what? Big Issues, presumably...
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